Interviews
Beliefnet Interview by Mary Talbot
Interview by Teresa Gottlieb, Santiago, Chile
Beliefnet Interview — Mary
Talbot
What does it mean to "make friends"
with death?
That title might be intimidating to some people, but it
is really about seeing the immediacy of death as an aspect
of everyday life, and appreciating the relationship between
the "little d" deaths we experience all the time—like
losing a pen, or a job or a relationship—and "big
D" deaths--that of someone we love or our own death.
If we can open to these lesser deaths, and begin to accept
the ongoing reality of impermanence and transition, we start
to let go of our preconceptions and expand our perspective.
Then, when we encounter Big D death, we can meet it with
less fear.
In your book you talk about people's strategies
of hope and fear about death--seeing it as the great loss
or the great reward, the great oblivion or the great rest,
among other things. But isn't there room for hope when someone
is dying?
I think there's room for optimism, but hope is often simply
the flipside of fear. We tend to cycle between hope and
fear, one moment believing someone will recover and the
next moment that she is about to die. It is a painful flip-flop.
We look for clues as to whether to "hope for the best"
or "expect the worst." But from a Buddhist perspective,
rather than trying to interpret the "real meaning"
of any given sign, we try to develop the mental and emotional
steadiness so that when hope goes up, our mind doesn't have
to go with it and when fear arises, our mind doesn't sink
down. We keep our balance. Not falling prey to false hopes
is not about writing people off, or thinking there's nothing
to live for, but appreciating that it's okay to be healthy,
and it's okay to sick. It's okay to live and it's okay to
die. Whatever the situation, we can be with it as it is.
You devote part of your book to working with
other dying people, but begin with chapters on exploring
our own mortality. Why is it so important to start with
developing an ongoing awareness of death ourselves?
Everybody wants to talk about death when it comes to somebody
else, but we get fidgety when it gets close to home. Nonetheless,
we need to go through the painful process of sticking with
our own reactions, our own fears, hopes and beliefs, so
that our notion of death is not just a conceptual idea in
the distance. Relating to the reality of our own death breaks
down the fixed idea of us as healthy and someone else as
sick. Apart from how this helps us develop a more sane relationship
with our own death, it's very important in being with someone
who's dying to come from the perspective that we're going
to be dying, too. It's part of being human.
Why is meditation practice so helpful in dealing with death
and dying?
Meditation allows us to see our emotions as they come and
go. We can watch our self-images begin to fall away and
we're left with this sort of barren ground that's not so
defined. That is the place where the mind can expand. As
we become familiar with the unbounded quality of mind that
arises in meditation, we will be able to recognize the possibility
for it when we encounter death.
What about the actual meditation of contemplating
death you describe in the book?
Even though it's a conceptual exercise, it has the power
to evoke our personal experiences and concepts of death.
So we can use it to examine our relationship to both life
and death. Afterwards you may begin to notice everyday experiences
you hadn't seen as relevant before, and learn from them.
For instance, when some little thing happens, like losing
a favorite possession or an allergy attack, you can observe
how you react—does it throw you into a crisis, or
can you stay with it? How we react to little losses and
changes reflects how we will deal with more serious changes
in the future. So each time we experience loss or change,
we have an opportunity to evolve our relationship to impermanence,
death, and change. Ultimately, the exercise helps us begin
to appreciate that we're going to die, and by staying with
that experience, reawaken our appreciation for life.
How has working with dying people changed your practice
or your view of death?
Apart from the quality of sadness that comes with death,
the time I've spent with dying people and their families
has been profoundly moving and an honor. It always brings
me back to the essential quality of life. In the face of
death, lots of petty preoccupations fall away. And death
is not as frightening when you're involved directly with
it. It's when it seems apart that it's scary and upsetting.
When you're with a dying person, it's so simple, so human,
and you realize how much time we all spend obsessing about
unimportant things.
Of course, there can be a lot of upsetting things going
on and needless pain, as families and the dying person may
be fending for different interests. But in cases like that,
which are common, there's another teaching involved: When
a person is dying, we can become attached to trying to control
the situation, but it's often not manageable. Here I've
learned a lot about letting go, about accepting things as
they are.
Interview With Judy Lief
By Teresa Gottlieb, Santiago, Chile
Publisher of Spanish Translation of Making Friends
with Death
July 2003 When did you start working in the field of
death and dying?
Who have you worked with most: health professionals or sick
and dying people?
I began by teaching the Naropa course on
The Tibetan
Book of the Dead in the summer of 1976, as described
in the introduction to the book. Subsequently, I taught
that class many times, at Naropa, in intensive Buddhist
retreats, and in shorter weekend introductory formats in
various Shambhala centers in North America and in Europe.
These programs tended to draw many people from the general
public, along with experienced Buddhist practitioners. In
teaching this material, I noticed that some students were
primarily interested in an exposition on the text and its
implications for Buddhist practitioners; other students
were looking for a way to understand and apply techniques
and insights of the Buddhist tradition more broadly, in
facing death and working with dying people. Many of my students
were health professionals or hospice workers or people facing
serious illness themselves, or the illness or death of someone
close to them.
I saw that there was a need to present a more general introduction
to these principles, which I called “A Contemplative
Approach to Working with the Dying.” I designed these
programs to be practical and nonsectarian. I also taught,
with Dr. Ed. Podvoll, a course in the Naropa MA in Contemplative
Psychology program, called The Psychology of Birth and Death.
This course focused on the psychology of change and transition,
drawing on both Eastern and Western models.
During this time I was introduced to Florence Wald, who
had a strong interest in the spiritual care of the dying.
We ended up teaching together at Naropa and at Karme Choling.
Florence invited me to participate in a conference at Yale
on the spiritual care of the dying. She introduced me to
many leaders of the early hospice movement and the palliative
care movement. She invited me to attend the International
Palliative Care conference in Montreal to participate in
a work group on this topic. At a later International Palliative
Care Conference, I was invited by Balfour Mount to give
a keynote address on Attentive Care.
Although I am primarily a Buddhist teacher and writer, I
became quite active in this area, primarily working with
caregivers. I am not a health professional or hospice worker;
instead my involvement with the dying has primarily been
as a Buddhist teacher. I have been present and hands-on
with many dying Buddhist practitioners, who asked for my
assistance. I have also been asked to advise and help students
caring for relatives who were not Buddhist practitioners.
I have conducted many funerals, and worked with people in
that context. In 2001, I served as a pastoral counselor
at Maitri Day Health Center in Yonkers New York, leading
a group on loss and change and counseling formerly homeless
people living with AIDS.
What is the relationship between meditation
and this kind of work? What do they have in common?
In my years of teaching, I have heard many stories and learned
a tremendous amount from my students. I have found that
the practice of mindfulness-awareness and other meditation
techniques described in the book are both practical and
relevant to this line of work. It is easy to become either
hardened or overwhelmed, and to burn out. Meditation is
about learning how to be attentive, how to let the mind
settle, how to regroup, how to lighten up. It is a tool
for learning nonverbal ways of connecting to another person.
I have noticed that people with a lot of experience working
with the dying are very aware of the need to work with their
own state of mind and heart in order to more effectively
help others. That is also what meditation is about. Working
with the sick and dying can be a powerful teacher, reminding
us of our own mortality and leading us to reflect on how
we lead our lives and what we truly value. Meditation practice
is an effective method for dealing with such questions.
Do you work alone or as part of a team?
I generally teach alone, but I have also taught with others
and participated in many conferences on the spiritual care
of the dying, most recently with Sogyal Rinpoche, Frank
Ostaseski, Rabbi Zalman Shachter, and Christine Longaker.
Have you met Kubler-Ross? What is the difference
between her approach and yours?
I have not met Kubler Ross, but I admire her pioneering
work. There is still a great need to listen to what the
dying have to say. What we have in common is the view that
death needs to be out in the open, not hidden away; talked
about, not covered up. Also, we share the sense that death
is not simply a medical event but a multi-dimensioned experience—physical,
spiritual, psychological, social, relational. In terms of
contrast, my focus has been 1) the importance of examining
ones own personal relationship with impermanence, and 2)
the value of contemplative training.
What in your book is traditional Buddhist teaching
and what have you added?
In my book, I have tried to take what I have learned through
my study and practice of Buddhism and joined that with what
I have learned from my students and colleagues in the West.
I have focused on those aspects of the tradition that I
feel are most relevant and helpful to those facing death
personally or as caregivers. The Buddhist tradition place
a great emphasis on the truth of impermanence, not just
as a theory but as a deeply felt reality. I hope I have
not added to or distorted that ground. Buddhist practitioners
could benefit by working closely with these teachings. At
the same time, I wanted to provide an accessible and practical
guide that would be helpful to anyone, no matter their background
or religious tradition.
Have people (students, patients) openly rejected
your approach?
I had one student proclaim that death was not inevitable,
but would soon be overcome technologically. I have had students
proclaim that everyone should just trust in Jesus. Someone
told me that God was punishing people by giving them AIDS.
But for the most part, people seem to appreciate these tools
and perspectives, and find that they can be applied in action.
How would you describe our cultures conventional
approach to death?
In brief, death is marginalized, medicalized, institutionalized,
romanticized, sanitized, and trivialized. Death is considered
to be a mistake to be overcome, outsmarted, conquered, and
avoided at all costs. People are embarrassed and uncomfortable
round the topic. Example: “I heard you wrote a book?”
“Yes.” “What is it about?” “It
is about making friends with death.” Awkward silence,
end of conversation, change of topic.
Are there people who have had a direct influence
on you in this field?
Definitely. In terms of the Buddhist teachings, I have been
most directly influenced by Chögyam Trungpa, Rinpoche,
my root teacher. Many other teachers have also been important
to me, including Suzuki Roshi and Thrangu Rinpoche, among
others. In terms of working with the dying, I have been
most influenced by Florence Wald, Balfour Mount, Frank Ostaseski,
Sogyal Rinpoche and Christine Longaker.
What was the course, “The Psychology of Birth and
Death,” taught at Naropa University, about?
This course, part of the MA in Contemplative Psychology,
was about dealing with extreme states of mind and with transitions
of all sorts. It included core teachings about bardos and
realms, an overview of Buddhist psychology, and many Western
psychological teachings on the topic. It was co-taught with
Dr. Ed Podvoll, author of The Seduction of Madness. I have
worked with similar topics when I have taught courses on
The Tibetan Book of the Dead, a text Trungpa Rinpoche described
as a geography of the mind and its dynamic interplay of
wisdom and confusion.
How would you define enlightenment?
I am not enlightened, so anything I would say would be complete
speculation. I think most practitioners aspire to lead lives
that are more sane, more creative and spontaneous, more
daring, and more expressive of compassion. It is often said
that this comes about by realizing the clarity and luminosity
of our own mind, and recognizing the basic goodness of ourselves
and others.
What would it mean for people to adopt in very
practical terms the approach to death and dying that you
teach?
I view my book as a reminder of simple wisdom and guidelines
we tend to forget in the stress of the moment. For those
people interested in contemplative practice, the best way
do work with this material is by going through the exercises
in the book. The mindfulness practice described in the book
is a method of lessening mental distraction by learning
to tame and focus the mind. It connects us with a sense
of being fully present here and now, which teaches us to
be more at ease with uncertainty. The contemplation of death
practice is a powerful way to explore repeatedly and in
depth our relationship to the reality of death, moment to
moment. The practice of loving-kindness, or tonglen, softens
our self-absorption and open our heart to others in a way
that combines vulnerability and strength. Personally, I
have found simple mindfulness practice one of the most helpful
tools there is for being with the dying.
For people interested in working with the dying, or facing
their own death, the best way to work with this material
would be to use the book as a reminder that to work with
others we must also be willing to work with ourselves. Reflecting
on our own death reminds us of the common ground we share
with the people with whom we are working. Remembering the
three principles of awareness, kindness and openness can
bring us back to basics, which can be easily lost in the
complexities of dealing with illness and death. In caring
for others, we can work with the six guidelines, which can
help us avoid pitfalls to care giving that arise out of
nervousness, speediness, stress, and distractedness. We
can use these guidelines as a way of coming into balance
in our work and avoiding burnout. So, in short, we can work
with these guidelines to help us be more present and effective
as we go about our work.
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